The Defuse Podcast - The Art and Science or Feeling Safer
Defuse / Diːˈfjuːz/ Verb: To Make A Situation Less Tense Or Dangerous.
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The Defuse Podcast - The Art and Science or Feeling Safer
Martyn’s Law – Better Protection from Terrorism with Figen Murray
On the 22nd May 2017, Figen Murray’s life as she knew it changed forever.
Her son, Martyn Hett, was one of the 22 people killed in the devastating Manchester Arena terrorist attack.
The acts of kindness and support that followed the tragic loss of Martyn Hett in the 2017 Manchester Arena bombing highlight the strength of community in times of grief.
Figen's advocacy for peace and positive change, rather than succumbing to anger, is truly inspiring. In memory of Martyn, Figen led the call for Martyn's Law, aiming to enhance security measures at public venues and prevent future tragedies.
The proposed UK legislation, the Terrorism (Protection of Premises) Bill 2024, seeks to improve preparedness and response to terrorist threats. Figen's dedication to turning personal tragedy into a force for societal advancement is commendable. Her commitment to promoting safety and resilience in the face of adversity is a powerful example of the impact one individual can have on shaping a safer future for all.
Welcome to the Diffuse podcast with host Philip Grindel, CEO and founder of Diffuse, a global threat and intelligence consult.
Speaker 2:personal actually I'm going to be, I've got the huge pleasure actually, of speaking with Fegan Murray, and we're going to introduce Fegan in a moment, but this is such an important topic that we're going to talk about today because it's about it's about something that happened that was about as bad as you can imagine, and how it's been used to motivate and to inspire, hopefully, some huge positives and a legacy that will ensure that what happened hopefully doesn't happen to other people. And I think it's testament to Fegan and you know a couple of people around her who I know quite well that we are where we are. So, fegan, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for your time. I hugely appreciate that. You're very much in demand. So Martin's law is a law that you have been pushing for since the. You know the appalling events of the Manchester Arena attack where your son lost his life. Can we start by just talking about Martin? Can you tell me about Martin? Tell me you know who was he, what was he like, what are your memories?
Speaker 3:Yeah, ok, first of all, thank you for having me on your programme. And what can I tell you about Martin? Well, he was larger than life, but he always also used to say I'm not going to see my 30th birthday and I'm going to die a spectacular death. And unfortunately he died at 29 and a half and died indeed a spectacular death. So, who knows, maybe he had a problem by premonition, who knows? But the way he behaved towards other people was absolutely incredible and we didn't appreciate the full extent of it until after he died, when lots of people said to us you don't know who I am, but Martin was my very best friend. So we realized that he had the ability to make everyone he got into contact with feel that they're his best friend, and that's quite a skill to have.
Speaker 2:So he was really kind to people wow, what a wonderful, not legacy, but a wonderful way to be thought of by so many people. What do you think he'd make of what you've done since that tragic evening?
Speaker 3:Oh my goodness, the first thing he'd do is he'd be really jealous that I have more followers on Twitter than he ever had. But joking apart, no, I think he would be quite touched and thrilled by the work I've done so far, but also impressed that I can even do it, because I'm such a technical dinosaur and social media dinosaur. Yet I'm muddling through.
Speaker 2:So if we go back to you know I'm not going to kind of dwell on the evening and the events and all that because I don't think that's going to serve anyone to kind of rehash all that but you had an experience a short time later when you went to a different event and were disappointed to see that measures that you thought might be in place weren't in place. Can you tell us about that experience?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So one of my children bought my husband some concert tickets for a singer he likes as a Father's Day gift in June the year after Martin died and the concert wasn't until December that year. So that would have been 18 months after the arena attack. And it's kind of the first time we went back into Manchester for, just socially. And I remember getting ready and changing my handbag and taking my tiniest handbag with me. I naively thought, well, if I take this, all I need is some tissues and my phone. That will make the bag search easy, because I just made the stupid assumption that, especially in Manchester, security will be top-notch everywhere, surely after what happened at the arena.
Speaker 3:So when we went to the venue, my husband got his wallet out, got his tickets out, we walked in, staff looked at us and then turned away, carried on talking. He said our seats are upstairs and we went and sat down and watched the concert. And during the concert he suddenly realized I was absolutely having tears streaming down my face and he whispered it's the songs, isn't it? And I whispered back saying I'm not even listening to the stupid songs. So he looked confused and said well, why are you crying then? And I whispered back saying because nobody checked my bag.
Speaker 3:I was devastated because I thought how can that be, 18 months after 22 people, a lot of them children, were killed in a music concert at a music concert, that 18 months later, it's business as usual and nobody cared about security? I could not believe it. That was in early December 2018. And that then led me to the decision to, after Christmas and New Year, do something about it, and I did a lot of research over the Christmas period because I knew nothing about terrorism or security, which obviously has now totally changed. I know a lot about both topics now, but I came across the government's counterterrorism strategy document and there it was in black and white. Security at venues to this day, seven and a half years on, is optional.
Speaker 3:Nobody is obliged to keep us safe as members of the public. So that's how it came to fruition. So what did you do?
Speaker 2:How do you start from nothing? How do you do that?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I looked at changeorg and then I realized the government has its own petition route. So because I wanted the government to change the law or bring a law in and I wanted support right from the start, I went the government petition route and that lasts six months and then the petition automatically ceases to exist and it took six months to get up to about 23,500 signatures. It sounds a lot but it isn't a lot because alongside mine two other ones emerged halfway through and overtook my petition by the hundreds of thousands within days. One was bring back the Jeremy Kyle show and the other one must bring back plastic straws for McDonald's, because the general public couldn't suck up milkshake with a paper straw. I've tried it, you can do it.
Speaker 2:So I guess that gives some perspective on what people's priorities were at the time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but it didn't surprise me, you know, because before Martin died, that would have been me, because I never, ever, honest to God, took notice of security when I went out. I took it as a given, I thought it goes without saying, never even thought of it. And I think the general public, most of the people around us, do the same. They never give it a thought. And yet, you know, if people knew how unsafe they actually are, it's on a different level. So obviously my eyes have been opened and hence the petition.
Speaker 3:And, as luck had it, brendan Cox phoned me halfway through my petition. I didn't know at the time who he was, and he explained who he was and he said look, I've got contacts in government. I would like to sit you in front of the security minister. And I said yes, please. And then he said well, we need to produce a white paper in order to do that, and I know just the person to do that and that's Nick Oldworth. So I had to go and meet Nick Oldworth at Scotland Yard.
Speaker 3:He couldn't immediately do it. He was very up for it but because he was still working for the police at the time, he couldn't join straight away. But he said I'm retiring in May and then as soon as I'm retired I'll be yours. And so he kept on his word. He retired and the day after he was on the phone saying I'm on board now, what shall I do? And he got the white paper done, and in the September that year we sat in front of the first out of I think, seven or eight security ministers, because they kept changing. So that's how Martins Law really started. You know, the Home Office.
Speaker 2:Sure. So what happened then? So you sat in front of these various ministers and you know, clearly, the very fact that you just said I had to sit through six or seven of these people, the very fact that you just said I had to sit through six or seven of these people, in itself sort of suggests that nobody really gripped hold of it and sort of ran with it at that stage.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's very difficult. The UK politics have been, over the last few years, quite complex, haven't they? I'm now on prime minister number five since the beginning of it all, security Minister number seven, possibly eight, and Home Secretary number four, and you know, every time there's yet another change it sets us back a little bit. Plus, we had COVID, so there's been quite a few delays, you know, but we carried on. And what happened is the Home Office actually set up a department just to deal with Martin's law, and that department is who we have been working with very closely over the last five years, five, five and a half years.
Speaker 2:So why? Why has it taken five and a half years to get to where we are now?
Speaker 3:five and a half years to get to where we are now. That politics seems to be rather complicated by the sound of it, and I get that there have to be lots of processes, but I think, in all honesty, it has taken longer than it should be. I know things take time to get legislation out and I know people have explained the process to me, but it could have been done quicker. So I got a phone call of Rishi Sunak at home on the 15th of December 2022, which would have been Martin's 35th birthday and he said to him can you promise me that the legislation will be done for the seventh anniversary, which would have been last year in May? And he said well, I'd love to do that, but I can't promise you because there are many stages still to go through with legislation. And he explained it has to go through a two-month scrutiny period with the Home of Select Committee, Then it has to go through many procedures in Parliament when it's being debated. But he said but I promise you, I'm very much on board with it, I'm very dedicated to this, very committed as a government to get this over the line and we'll push it. And then the thing happened. It went very, very quiet. Then the thing happened. It went very, very quiet, and do you know what?
Speaker 3:So Brendan Cox and I went to a meeting in the Home Office about four years ago and that particular meeting didn't go so well. So outside I was talking to Brendan afterwards and I said you know what, Brendan, if they don't do this legislation soon, I'm going to walk from Manchester to London just to prove a point. And he at the time said don't be daft, don't be crazy, you don't need to do stuff like that. Anyway, this January, because nothing had developed, he rang me and he said you know that conversation we had all those years ago. I think you need to start practicing for your walk. I think you should do the walk early May. And as soon as he said that, my husband and I practiced because we're both not very fit people, we're not sporty people Every weekend from mid-January we were out, Saturdays and Sundays for five, six, seven hours walking and we trained ourselves up. And then, on 7th of May, I started my protest march by going to the exact spot where Martin died and walked to number 10.
Speaker 2:number 10. And has that produced?
Speaker 3:a change in impetus by the new government to actually get moving. Yeah, so we were very lucky. The walk took 16 days and we set off on May the 7th with the intention to arrive on May the 22nd, which was the 7th anniversary of the arena attack. And we were lucky that we worked the distances out exactly to arrive on that morning and a meeting was arranged with Rishi Sunak at 12.45. And I am so glad it was 12.45 and not 2 or 3.45. Had it been later he would have most likely cancelled, because that was also the same day.
Speaker 3:He called the election, because it was 12.45 and because it was mentioned in Parliament that we are in the gallery that morning in Prime Minister's Question Time. He had little choice but to meet us. He had to meet us. Could you imagine the headlines had he not met me that day?
Speaker 3:Grieving mother walks 16 days and 200 miles to number 10 from the arena and arrives on the anniversary of her son's death and the Prime Minister refuses to meet her. That would not have been good reading for him, you know, sort of for the papers. So he had no choice but to meet me and the meeting was okay. Um, a bit non-committal and a bit business-like, um, but at least he met James Cleverley was there as well. They met us um. And then shortly after we met pierce darmer and and some of his ministers and it was a completely different meeting. So my youngest two daughters were with me and my youngest daughter is 23 and she summed it up she said the meeting with rishi sunak and james cleverly was very business like. It was a business, it felt like, but she said the meeting with Keir Starmer and his colleagues was like human to human and from a young person to say that, yeah, so what's happened since?
Speaker 2:Where are we now?
Speaker 3:So okay. So obviously Keir Starmer got in and during the whilst both Vishy Sunak and Keir Starmer were campaigning during their campaign, keir Starmer still managed to find time to either write himself or get somebody to write to me. Either way is fine by me, because he gave me a thought. He gave me a thought and he wrote me a letter that after he got elected he sent it me during the campaign but allowed me to publish it once he got elected and he publicly in that letter committed to getting Martin's Law done as a political and a personal pledge, and to me that meant a lot. And then, after he got elected obviously just before the party political conferences sorry he introduced Martin's Law into Parliament through the first reading and my husband and I are going to the second reading alongside Brendan and Nick and some other people on the 14th of October, where it's going to be debated from 3.30 in the afternoon probably till 10 o'clock at night.
Speaker 2:You wonder what they're going to talk about for all that period of time, isn't it because you kind of think you know? I mean, it is a bit of a no-brainer. Frankly, it's clearly appalling that something has had to happen to bring us to this place. But I can tell you from personal experience I'm a bit like you. My background, obviously, is terrorist-related and event terrorist-related. So I go to venues and I'm always interested in what the security people are going to do.
Speaker 2:And I went to the theatre last week with my sisters, actually in London, central London, so you think that's gonna be pretty hot. But actually when they searched our bags, it was a case of can you open your zips and let me have a look at it? But they wouldn't search it and I said why aren't you putting your hands in and looking around? Oh, health and safety. And I thought to myself well, that's ridiculous, because if I'm a terrorist then you know I can easily secrete something at the very bottom of my, and I had actually a sort of day rucksack and I know without a shadow of doubt that had I had something in that bag, he would not have found it. So we're talking several years after you've started this campaign in the middle of central London. The security was very much for show, I would suggest. I don't think it was particularly effective. So I don't know what politicians are going to talk about for six hours, because it really should be. Yep, this is going to. You know, we need to get this done very, very quickly.
Speaker 3:No, I'll tell you what they'll talk about. They'll talk about money and the legislation damaging small businesses, because that was the damage caused in the Home Affairs Select Committee by some people representing small businesses and, of course, one minister in particular who was part of the committee, particular who was part of the committee, who was very um damning of the legislation by accusing us of making over 7 000 village halls, closing them down and ripping out the heart of the community. Um, obviously that is nonsense. We don't intend that at all and you know we always write from the word go said Marvin's Law is proportionate.
Speaker 2:Who was that minister? Who was that that said that?
Speaker 3:Oh, tim Lawton Right okay, interesting yeah.
Speaker 3:But you know, he I mean he said, look, I'm a trustee at my village hall. I exhibit vegetables every year in that village hall. I'm going to exhibit the stuff if it closes down. So he was more bothered about where to display vegetables. He then topped it up by the Daily Mail doing an interview with him and he flippantly said in that interview that actually, and he flippantly said in that interview that actually, why would terrorists completely want to even be interested in going to villages and attacking the local yoga class or the local women's institute meeting or Slimming World group? That's not an interesting enough target. And I'm thinking what are you talking about? Joe Cox was killed in a village and Sir Amos was killed in a community centre. What on earth are you talking about? This is happening to real people yeah, well it.
Speaker 2:It tends to suggest that um have and I say this having worked in parliament for some years it tends to suggest that he hasn't actually fully understood what you're trying to achieve or the mechanism behind what should happen. So let's, let's get into that, because let's let's forget about a politician that clearly hasn't got the intelligence to read something properly and inform himself. So let's talk about it. So talk to me about what Martin's Law, what are you hoping, achieves?
Speaker 3:Well, what we want to happen is that we want staff at venues to do the ACT training, which is an hours training, and in terms of cost, the course is offered free of charge by government, but actually if you have to pay your staff, it's one hour staff wages yeah, so that's an online course, isn't it?
Speaker 2:that's an online course, online course. Yeah, I've done it. Yeah, I've done it. I've done it. A couple of times.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's interactive. I just thought earlier I need to repeat it. Mine is a few years ago, so I'm going to do it shortly again. It's a brilliant course and it gives you so much knowledge and I feel knowledge is power and it empowers. Let's take a village hall. We want the volunteers and staff to just look at the building and say, okay, if somebody wants to attack us, where do we go? Where we either hide safely or run out and does everybody who works or volunteers there know that? So that's, that's all we want. We want people to know how to lock down. Do they all know? Lock the door and then try and hide or evacuate. That's not a big deal and that doesn't cost any money.
Speaker 2:So, if we think about it logically, in terms of how do these terrorists think? So what they're trying to do is create terror and fear. Yeah, and so we know that crowded places, large or small, are attractive targets to them. We also know, if we look and I've studied the attacks on joe cox and and sir david amos, because obviously that was my role in working in parliament with mps, so I know specifically how they target them and that it is local constituents, in actual fact, that have targeted all these people. So we're talking about local people who are conducting a terrorist attack against local people. In those cases, they're members of parliament.
Speaker 2:But actually, if you're a local terrorist and you are self-ignited, you're a self-loan actor, etc. You might well choose to target a local venue that has local people in it, because that's what your ideology might be. So what you're suggesting is that that building, that that set of premises, a village hall, etc. Will have fire regulations, as an example. Yeah, they will have a fire exit and they'll have, you know, they'll have the kind of protocols that go around there and what. What I think and correct me if I'm wrong vegan, but what you're suggesting is well, why don't they do the same for having a terrorist attack, so we're not expecting that. You know they're going to be marauding gunmen coming through here 20 of them but there might be one individual who turns up, as in the mental attack, with a rucksack of some description. What is your plan for dealing with that? In the same way as you've got a health and safety plan and all these other plans that go on.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's what you're asking yeah, it's as simple as that and the training is already free. Um, you know, for god's sake, if you have to ask volunteers to do that training, give them a bunch of flowers. You need to a box of chocolates as a thank you for sitting down and spending an hour. And I mean, the daft thing is that course is so good. It will help you as a private citizen anyway, because, as you know and I know, terrorism can strike anywhere, anytime, anyplace.
Speaker 2:And also I would add, Figen, that I spent a long time working in that environment. I've done the training and I benefited from it because it's a refreshment. It's a refreshment.
Speaker 3:And every organisation, large or small has has staff training, so why wouldn't you hang that as one of your staff training sessions? Well, precisely so. But um, and then the other thing we're asking is that people in any organization, big or small, have a counterterrorism action plan, um, and that literally everyone, from the cleaning person to the ceo, knows if something happens, what do I do, where do I go, where do I hide, where do I run to? And that's that's all. That's what you're asking. The very big venues. What we're saying is the local authority ought to work with the venue in case of something happening, and that could be as simple as they can change the timings of the traffic lights so that people can exit the area quicker, get away from the area quicker, for instance.
Speaker 2:So you know, so simple so, at its simplest, what we're talking about is a greater awareness of the issues. We're not talking about hugely sophisticated counter-terrorism. You know plans, with god knows how many, but I used to write the eyes to write those when I didn't various things I was doing. But that's not what you're asking for. No, not. You're asking for the people that are involved in a small venue and increasing up to large venues, shopping centers as well, and places where we, as a public, go, to have a greater, greater awareness of what the threat might be and a plan of what are we going to do if there is a threat or if there is an attack.
Speaker 3:Exactly yeah.
Speaker 2:Which doesn't seem like rocket science.
Speaker 3:It's not rocket science, and I'll tell you how important it is and how simple that message is to absorb. So, after some of the attacks in London in 2017, after one of the bridge attacks the police in London went to some of the local venues and gave them simple training. And then Borough Market happened and in one of the restaurants there was a young guy, a young manager, who'd done that training and he could see in the distance something unfolding, something bad, and he got his staff to get all the customers in from outside and got the customers inside as well, and they all hid in the basement. But before he did that, he got everybody in and then locked the door Right. He locked the door and the terrorists they don't like locked doors. He couldn't get in and these people hid in the basement.
Speaker 3:So, in contrast to that, I know another German who, at the time of the Borough Market attack, worked in London and his manager was off sick and he was in charge. Suddenly he was the assistant manager and then there was a 17, 18-year-old guy helping him and the terrorists came towards his building Whilst he locked the door. The terrorist was on one side of the glass and he was inside looking at each other and he was completely terrorized and froze. He didn't know. He said nobody told us what to do. I just locked the door and that's all I did, but I didn't know what else to do. Yeah, and we all panicked, yeah, and, and so that's the difference, you know. So, if you know what to do, that training comes into action when you need it yeah.
Speaker 2:So what we're saying then is for small venues yeah, it'd be that. You know, your your local. I live, you know, I've got a church that's near me. They have a church hall that they rent out for you know, as you said, yoga classes or music halls, sorts of venues. Those sort of small venues can do the very, the very good free act training and have an understanding, in the same way as they do with their fire plan. What do they do should this awful event happen? For the larger events and venues so we're talking shopping centres, we're talking the Manchester arenas, we're talking football stadiums they have a more detailed plan that is coordinated with the local authority. So let's talk about a couple of issues that people obviously say. Let's talk about the larger organisations and the shopping centres. Let's talk about cost. What are the costs for them to get this training and to get what they need to do?
Speaker 3:Right, I can't give you a monetary amount. However, my view is because when I first introduced Martin's Law as a petition and I was totally on my own before Nick and Brendan came on board I was heavily criticised by people on Twitter that I will make people bankrupt and businesses will close down. So then I then two, three years later, did my master's in counterterrorism. I decided to address the issue of money and take, for instance, the Manchester Arena. They hold just over 20,000 people. If they ran three events a week for 50 weeks a year and they were only half full say 10,000 people every night and they charged her ticket an extra 50 pence security levy, they would generate a yearly amount of 750,000 pounds. Wow, now, that is you know, and that's half full only. Um, and to me, if that money is then ring fenced for security in the annual reports for the, the stakeholders to see, and that's being reinvested in security, you can buy equipment, you can buy a security manager director, you can put money into training.
Speaker 2:I cannot understand why people can't just do that so for 50p per person, it depends, yeah, per rent per event. Yeah, yeah, that would. I mean, that's not going to bank up to anybody.
Speaker 2:And if we think about, if we think about how much concert tickets are right now, yeah you know that's they charge an awful lot of money to to go and see you know an act somebody, yeah, um, so yeah, can I just actually before we go on that can I, can I just ask, pause, right, you mentioned there rather rather kind of um humbly, if that's a correct word, when I did my master's degree in counterterrorism so let's just pause and talk about that for a moment, because, because that I've done a master's degree in in similar subjects, it's not easy. Um, they don't give them out. So just talk for me for a moment about what your master's degree was in and what your dissertation was in then um.
Speaker 3:So my dissertation was well, it's counterterrorism, because the reason I did the course I was 56 at the time when I started, or sorry, 58. And the reason I did it wasn't because I suddenly had the drive to learn and educate myself, but I had so many questions about why Martin died. I couldn't understand what these people are about, why somebody would walk in with a bomb and blow themselves up into bits and prepare to die. I couldn't understand that. I couldn't understand why terrorism is even a thing in the world. I didn't know when it started, who it was started by, and I wanted to know if the police or the country or anybody globally does anything to stop it. So I had all these questions and the only way I could get answers was to educate myself. So, and I got all my answers and far more and so what was your conclusion?
Speaker 3:um, right and the other. This is going to be sounding really, really controversial, but I like controversial I also wanted to know if I have martin's blood on my hands. Um, because I thought, why is social terrorism even a thing? And what I realized through my training is that terrorism is created by society. It's a societal issue. As I'm a member of society, and Martin was as well, I think we are all to blame for the state of the world we're in. So, therefore, I feel I have Martin's blood on my hands.
Speaker 3:Interesting and I know, that sounds really weird, but it happens to be how it feels.
Speaker 2:I mean you know. I mean, I think I think you know you've done your master's degree, so I think you're being, I think you'll understand that it's a good deal more complex than that, shall we say. But I understand what you're saying, but so you've gone out and you've properly educated yourself on the subject. So when you're saying, but, um, so you've gone out and you've properly educated yourself on the subject, so when you're, when you're talking, when you're talking to me or other people or government ministers, you're not, you know, you are a grieving mother, but actually you're someone with a master degree in this subject who has properly educated and understands the issues and and having worked with nick and a couple of others who are, you know, experts in their field, you know you've got a good idea about some of the preventative aspects of counter terrorism. So do you think this might be a difficult question? Do you think that Martin's law, had it been in, would that have prevented the attack on Manchester?
Speaker 3:I think it could have been well done, because it would have meant that all the staff are properly trained. The training would have been checked, that it's understood and absorbed. There would have been refresher training. There would have been yearly training. People would have known the power of hello. They wouldn't have had hung ups like I don't want to be accused of being a racist because you can train people in that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3:Um, the, the cctv thing would have been better dealt with. The controls that you know that were carried out would have been done better. There's just so much that would have possibly been different. And you know, I always say even your website about a venue can be a deterrent for bad people, because the first thing a terrorist will do is look on your website and if you have a detailed floor plan, that is music to their ears, they love that. And uh, you know and, and, and. You'd be surprised how many people have floor plans on there. You know whether they have to do it for fire regulation, I'm not so sure, but if they don't, they shouldn't have it on. Yeah, um, and you know, and, and then, um, all you need to put on there is for your safe enjoyment of our venue. We have overt and covert uh security in operation. We absolutely um updated our security system. We have the latest cctv cameras.
Speaker 2:Whether that's true or not, it's you know who cares, but a terrorist doesn't like reading that you know, you're, you're absolutely right, they do their reconnaissance and they do it online now, and so you know simple things such as you know if you publish your evacuation plan or your fire plans, all those sorts of things, um, you know they might seem to be to be really helpful, but actually who are you actually helping? Not, and are they really necessary? Do you really think members of the public who are coming to your event really go online and look at all that and plan? I mean, I guess one or two might, but the vast majority won't yeah, but that people do absolutely yeah, yeah, totally, I understand that completely.
Speaker 2:So, just in context, you mentioned there, um that, the issue around an individual who thought he might be accusing a racist had he done what he was supposed to do. So you're referring to one of the security guards who's a young, very young white young guy who was concerned about approaching.
Speaker 2:So he'd seen the terrorist, he'd identified him twice, but was concerned about approaching. So he'd seen the terrorist, he'd identified him twice, but was concerned about approaching him because he feared that he would be accused of being racist by doing so. That's just to give that context, so some people won't know that. So I think the question for me is um, we can put the best plans in place, we can have all these you know the act uh videos, we can do annual training, all sorts of things, but at the end of the day it comes down to individuals doing what they're supposed to do. Now, clearly, one of the challenges for manchester was there were a number of individuals who failed to do what they should have done and some of those were police officers um, yeah, so how do we, how do we, how do we change that?
Speaker 2:how do we make sure that, you know, clearly, the policing have to have supervision and manage that? That's that, I get that there. That's that's kind of beyond your control in terms of that. How do we make sure that you know a 19 year old security guard um, he might have seen the videos, he might have done all that, but but for him to then approach somebody who he thinks might be a terrorist, that's, that's a big ask. How do we change that mindset? And how do we, how do we change people's you know, ability to do that?
Speaker 3:so one of the things that was identified at the arena was that, um, for instance, one of the supervisors of these three young guys, he said in his evidence he was asked are you approachable as a supervisor? And he said something like well, let's just say I am firm or something, I'm strict or something. So basically he wasn't approachable. So I think an approachable management style to security people because those people, people are your most important asset If you have good communication and you are an approachable manager, anything you please over-report rather than under-report. With that kind of mindset you're more likely to get somebody who's unsure about what to do to get their supervisor.
Speaker 3:You know, and at the arena also, one of the guys the young guys couldn't operate the communication device. He didn't know what the red button was for. You know, lack of training and to me those are fundamental things. But it has to be a joint team effort with good communication skills, a good team, a good team that know each other and know the building well. I think that is really, really important. Good management, good supervision, um, all of that, every little bit helps to make a venue safer.
Speaker 2:And those skill sets and those issues that you're referring to there are not unique to countering a terrorist attack.
Speaker 2:They're important for any evacuation of the premises, any team that was looking to make that place a safer place for crime, for a fire, for you know somebody who might have fallen over and hurt themselves. Those are all the skills that that are necessary for just general good running of an event. Absolutely, yes. So are they parts of the training in terms of if we're looking to introduce designated training for events and and um, uh and other places? Such as shopping malls, etc.
Speaker 2:Are these included in those types of training that you're encouraging and you know, beyond just counter-terrorism but actually teamwork?
Speaker 3:yeah, obviously that's not written as such in martin's law, but it's common common sense and I think martin's law is common sense. You do as a team. You, you know, learn from what happened in manchester, everything that went wrong in manchester, and I think as a team, you need to be cohesive. And if a team leader or management security, security management really got that on board, they will train their staff to make sure they are a good team. And also, what is really important, training alone is not enough. You might need to practice so that people have it in their muscle memory. You know, do that practice event.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's an interesting that's a really good point, viggen, because I've been involved in obviously lots of these events where, um, we used to have to practice, because you only find out what you don't know or what goes wrong I'll give you a really good example, actually we used to I used to work at the airport for a period of time and and when every terminal has to go through a review every so many years, where you practice, um, an aircraft coming in and it's either crashing or there's a terrorist or something.
Speaker 2:So how do you manage all that? And every time you do it you're learning something new and you experience the. You know the tiny little things about I don't know how to use bloody radio, or you know how do I have I don't know the phone number to the control room. So how do I get that?
Speaker 3:and all these tiny issues, which are often overthought when you're writing a report or writing a plan, come out when you're practicing yeah, yeah, and and that is why it's so important, because when you've done it once or twice it becomes part of your muscle memory and it just kicks in automatically. And I think that is really important. Just doing a paper exercise is just not always good enough. Yeah, and when the real thing happens, then you need to be ready. And I mean you mentioned police officers, emergency services earlier of the arena inquiry to me. Um I I don't feel I want to blame anyone for any mistakes.
Speaker 3:Lots and lots of mistakes have been made at the arena from very many different parties involved. But my view has always been that you do not go into policing, medicine, paramedics profession, fire service, etc. You do not go into those jobs because of the incredibly social powers or the fantastic uniforms or the incredible pay packet. That's all nonsense because none of it exists. It's all bad. But people go into those jobs because they want to make a difference and to me it is commendable. Whoever has made mistakes at the arena from those professions. They know they've made mistakes and those people have to, every single day for the rest of their lives, get up, look in the mirror and face another day with that guilt and burden and shame on the shoulder and that's a heavy weight to carry. You know, being cross and upset with them doesn't bring Martin and anybody else back. So I feel that you know those people need to learn and become better in jobs than before and be more vigilant, and I'm sure every one of them will be from then on.
Speaker 2:Well, I hope so. I hope so, 're, you know you've absolutely nailed that there. So let's just recap. So this we understand, and anyone who's listening, who may not be familiar with with what martin's law is, um, what, what the requirements are. So we've got five requirements that are included in the legislation. I'll read them out so you don't have to sort of do that. But the first one is to engage with freely available counterterrorism advice and training. So you've talked about the ACT training, which is a free piece of training from the Counterterrorism Policing Command. So that's the first bit.
Speaker 2:So it's free and it's easily available. Why wouldn't you do it? The second bit is conduct a vulnerability assessment of their operating places and spaces. So the question there is some people might be thinking I don't know how to do that. So what would their advice be?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So my advice would be put yourself in the position of a bad person. Go around inside the building and outside the building with the mindset of a bad person who wants to do you harm or the people inside. How would you do it? Is there a window that is? Maybe the lock isn't working, or is there some window you can smash in easily? Are there stones about? Is there any way? And inside the building, is there any way that any area is vulnerable? Just go around the building inside and outside.
Speaker 3:It's a bit like doing a health and safety risk assessment. Instead of looking for cables that can trip you up, look for vulnerabilities. How easy is it to get into a building? You know so and that's it. How easy is it to find out the combination of the lock you might have? You know it's stuff, things like that. So, literally, do a risk assessment outside the building and inside the building, and that is then the next point of the five points. Anything you identify as a risk, deal with it. Yeah, could be for a small building that the back light may not work or the back but the back door is sticking.
Speaker 2:Fix it right, so yeah mitigate the risk you've identified is actually yeah so so you know, you're you've got risk. You've identified it's actually yeah, so so you know you've got it, you've got cctv. It's not working, so fix it. Yeah, yeah, okay, are you? Are these people require required? Let's use the word required because it talks about five requirements. Are they? Are they required to create a written report and retain that?
Speaker 3:um. So the standard tier initially asked for that and after the village hall issue the Home Office scrapped the forms for the smaller venues, for the venues 200 up to 799. They no longer have to do it.
Speaker 2:So effectively, if your venue holds less than 800 people, there's no. You might want to do it, you might choose to do it, but there's no legal requirement under Martin's law to produce and retain a written record. Good practice would suggest you do, because we know that when we write things down it's better and we've got a report okay.
Speaker 3:So above 800 attendance, you're required to have a written report yeah, you have to be far more stringent with your, with your requirements. But my argument is that big venues know what to do anyway. They're just not doing it because it's not legislated, and but once it's legislation they should be.
Speaker 2:It should be good practice for big venues anyway and is that an annual event, or how often are they required to do that? I?
Speaker 3:think it's for each, each event. Oh, is it every event?
Speaker 2:every event. They have to do that. Okay, all right you need.
Speaker 3:But the thing is, let me give you an example. So again, the Manchester Arena, the Ariana Grande concert with Martin and the others a lot of children died was deemed the risk assessment. Was deemed as not high risk because it's the children's concert. A few days before that there was a Take that concert, again deemed not that high risk because it's females, my age, the demographic. A few days before that there was a wrestling match lots of security, high security, high risk because there were lots of drunken men fighting. So you need to, venue by event sorry, event by event, do a risk assessment because every event may have a different structure and visitors and whatever you know.
Speaker 2:But I would argue they've misunderstood what the risk assessment is about, because they're making a risk assessment based on the attendees rather than on the terrorist and their intentions. I don't think a terrorist really cares whether it's wrestlers or children, they're killing, they're just. They want to kill as many as they can yes, but nevertheless.
Speaker 3:A children's concert is, for a terrorist, far more appealing because of the shock factor, absolutely by the fact that he's killed children. It's like that makes headlines, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:sure, so okay. So then the next bit is put in place a counter-terrorism plan. Yeah, so let's talk about. Are we talking again about the plus 800, or or everybody?
Speaker 3:no, I think the smaller venues need to do that as well. But it's a simple ask. Does everybody know what to do in the event of an attack?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:This is why I'm saying every volunteer, every employee, every staff member, from cleaning person to the CEO, ought to know. In case of an event, does everybody know how to lock down the building, Because you may be the cleaner, but you may be the person nearest to the lock at that moment in time, you know so does every person know how to lock the building and where to hide or run out of the building? And you know. That's what we're talking about here.
Speaker 2:So, interestingly, you know, when you do a short presentation as an example, if I was going to go to my village hall and do a presentation there is normally an acceptance at the beginning of that presentation that you talk about health and safety.
Speaker 2:You know, you point out the exits and all that sort of stuff so actually that would fit very comfortably into that piece at the beginning of any event, to say you know, this is what we're going to do in the event, this is our protocol. So it's not. You know, again, we're not talking about something sophisticated, particularly not at all.
Speaker 3:Not at all. It's fairly straight. We've always said martin's law is proportionate and it's common sense, it's. And you know, even if you, to be honest, even if you are not in scope with the 200, if you are a venue smaller than 100, I think you should still try and do Martin's Law Because, although you can't be prosecuted if something happens, but it's simply because it's the right thing to do, it's simply because it's the right thing to do?
Speaker 2:And do you think that, in due course, insurance companies will require buildings that hold events of any size to evidence that they've implemented Martin's Law?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think the insurance companies are are doing discussions around that and they're talking about maybe we can reduce premiums for people who have really security measures in place. We give them incentives. So I think the insurance sector will change accordingly as well yeah, okay, because obviously it all takes time, doesn't it? It it does.
Speaker 2:But that seems a logical expectation. If you're holding events in a premises that presumably is ensured to do that because of fire risks and everything else, then that would be a sensible option as well. Okay, so then, and then, obviously, for the greater events and venues, you know that security, counterterrorism plan is going to be, you know, more detailed, more sophisticated, because of the very nature of the, the volume of people, the regularity of the events. Yeah, um, and you would expect a shopping center to do the same. They wouldn't necessarily do one every day, because it's business as usual, but they would be expected to have a plan in place yeah, I mean, I recently went to a big shopping centre.
Speaker 3:They invited me along because they did a training session with their security staff. The shoppers didn't know about it, but they pretended that there were two suspect packets. One of them was a bomb in a rucksack a pretend one and the security staff had to find it and then do a kind of a lockdown kind of procedure and, honest to god, it was absolutely brilliant to watch and they were so on the ball with it and they're practicing and they do it fairly regularly yeah, good, that's that's, you know.
Speaker 2:I mean, that demonstrates that it's doable, isn't it, and that it's not? Yeah, it's not, it's not. You don't have to be a counterterrorism expert to do that, because you may not be a security professional. You might be a cleaner that finds something.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:OK. And then the last one is a requirement for the local authorities to plan for the threat of terrorism. What does that mean?
Speaker 3:Well, it could be like, say, the Manchester Arena would be attacked again that the local council can actually change the traffic light timings so that people can drive away from the area as quickly as possible. They're near a train station. They can add another train quickly, they can have buses outside. They could try their best to help and curate and they also put into action their emergency planning, like at the arena they had the Etihad stadium where victims and people who were lost could go and assemble and get the support they need. And it's that kind of planning, you know, that is really important and that the council and everybody concerned knows what to do and who needs to be contacted and what mechanisms have to be put into place to help everybody.
Speaker 2:So that is a kind of post event plan then. So what we're saying is God forbid Even beforehand.
Speaker 3:I mean the council can actually do. You know, I know, for instance, in manchester there's more and more, uh, counter terrorism measures dotted around town and that's very good to see and it doesn't have to be ugly, it can be a planter here and some trees and some reinforced benches there. Yeah, you know, security doesn't have to be very, very scary and in your face so so what we're looking at then is there is the.
Speaker 2:There is the protective security planning around the town in terms of local authority, around the the. You know the vehicle mitigation and all those sorts of things, but actually, you know, in terms of licensing a premise to hold events, as an example, the local authority and the premise could get together to coordinate their plan, to make sure that they have a coordinated security plan and then, in the event of there being an attack because I think this is one of the other issues that you know Manchester identified was okay, let's assume we can't stop every attack we need to then have a plan post attack to actually look after people and make sure that we're not driving people towards more danger. Yes, because we have to assume there might be a secondary attack or something. So you're, so this, this, this local authority plan is around. Okay, what are we gonna do? How are we gonna evacuate, or evacuate people how? So they have to have that plan for that yes, and that's important, and you know what it's.
Speaker 3:It's again manchester have really taken their learning, because the council have now started in manchester and they are any. Any license that needs to be renewed in Manchester, or any new licence, has to be subject to Martins Law.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So they've made it a requirement. In Manchester, If you renew your licence you need to do Martins Law.
Speaker 2:So, even though it's not enacted yet, they're still conditioned of licence.
Speaker 3:But the training and Manchester Council and the local counter-terrorism police have got together and they're doing monthly ACT training in person. And you know it was initially for the nighttime economy. The clubs and pubs, the restaurants wanted to join, hotels wanted to join banks and businesses and cafes and shops. So a lot of inner city people are voluntarily doing this training and every month they are holding an event. It's a three-hour event and every month this is oversubscribed and it's rampacked. People are really on board with it in Manchester.
Speaker 2:So they're not waiting for the law to be enacted.
Speaker 3:They're already getting on with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, good, that's good advice. So let me ask you about one bit which I think is an interesting conversation. So the concept obviously currently, and the policy by counterterrorism policing is run hide, tell, but if I've read the proposal correctly, you're wanting to change that to guide, shelter, tell. But if I've read the proposal correctly, you're wanting to change that to guide, shelter, communicate.
Speaker 3:I'm not a policymaker. I can't really decide what they're going to do. At the end of the day, the government will do that the way they want. And Martin's law, the way it's been sort of written, wasn't exactly how, word by word, we set it. So there will be changes and even, because it's going to be debated, who knows what other changes they're going to make. But on the whole, uh, we want I mean everybody wants people to just simply be safe. Um, and ron hightell is is okay, um, but actually what you just is also important, and the communication is really really an important aspect.
Speaker 2:Because I think, I think it's what's really interesting is that what we don't want to do is confuse people and certainly run hide tell is, you know, quite easy off the tongue, it's quite easy to say, it's quite memorable, and we can't. It's going to be confusing if we're going away from counter-terrorism, policing advice. Um, because people, you know, we you know in that moment when all hell is breaking loose, you want people to know what to do. You don't want to confuse them. Am I doing this or am I doing that? And so that's really important, I guess you're right.
Speaker 3:I think hightail is what people should do, because you know, at the end of the day, that is the awareness campaign that's been running for many years and people are familiar with it. Although they may not realise it subliminally, They'll be listening to it over and over again in various places and over again in various places. However, I think once Martin's Law is done and out there, the government will run an awareness campaign and it'll be interesting if they change that message or whether they keep it the same way.
Speaker 2:So when do you imagine that's going to happen? When are you led to believe that this will actually be enacted as a law?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I anticipate and hope and pray that it will be done and signed by the King by the 8th anniversary in May next year. However, the government works very slow and it's only got its second reading in Parliament. On the 14th of October we have the third reading, that there's committee time and amendments being proposed. Once those have been signed, sealed, agreed upon, it then goes to the House of Lords for the first, second and third reading. Again, there'll be a committee with amendments. They'll be done. They need to be agreed upon. Then both houses need to agree on all the amendments together and when everybody finally is in agreement it goes to the King for signing, so that takes a long time.
Speaker 2:So you're hoping that at the next state opening of Parliament, when His Majesty the King effectively reads what the new legislation the government want to introduce, that's your aim, then I mean, it seems to me, bear in mind how long we've been talking about the changes in legislation that you've been talking about since Manchester. I mean, it's just kind of thing, why can't they? This is so important, why can't it be emergency legislation? We're looking at bringing in a piece of legislation that's going to hopefully save people's lives. And if we look at what's going on in the world right now, we look at how, you know, geopolitically things are escalating rapidly. I know, you know we. But at the same time we're all going to events. We're going to football matches, we're going shopping, we're doing all these things, and God bless Manchester for doing all these things before legislation requires it to do. But it just seems to me why can't we just say we need emergency legislation to get this through? The temperature is high. This isn't that difficult.
Speaker 3:There's two elements. One of the reasons will be money. There's always money. That is the big objection that it costs too much. And the second reason is, you see, the thing is, in the UK we've got really good at stopping events from sorry terrorist attacks from happening. We've foiled about 40 attacks since 2017, and I think Sir Amos was the last person to be killed in a terrorist attack in the UK. Since his death, there haven't been any other victims of terrorism who died because they've all been stopped. But you know, when you stop 40 attacks, sooner or later the law of averages tells me that one of the attacks isn't going to be stopped, and and it's only at the next big attack when people die. People will think whoa, why haven't we got this legislation in yet?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean, I think if we take ourselves back vegan. The ira once said we only have to get lucky once you have to get lucky every time yeah, and so exactly I know that ct policing and security service has done a fantastic job to to keep us all safe up until now, um, but the law of averages, as you say, suggests that that they will miss one potentially.
Speaker 3:Politicians will see. Well, we've not had an attack since Amos and therefore they become complacent. Yeah well, complacency I mean, I'm with you.
Speaker 2:Complacency is the biggest threat to all of us, frankly, because you know, whatever you do, whatever you're, you know if you don't, if you choose not to lock your door at night or leave your door open cause you'd never been burgled, don't be surprised if you get burgled. Um, so, yeah, okay, all right. Well, I think, um, I think it's uh, you know, I applaud you 100% for all that you've done. I think it's absolutely astonishing what you've achieved and I know that. I know that you'll continue fighting the good fight, because I think we need. We need to be in a situation where people take it seriously. Um, yeah, people, I mean, you know people wouldn't dream of not having fire regulations and yet a lot of buildings have never been burnt down, but we all have fire regulations. We've improved fire prevention dramatically over the years because of the good work for the fire service and others. Um, we need now, so I think, to refocus on this area, as the world is getting more and more dangerous and much of what we've talked about today, you know, is common sense, simple, basic stuff.
Speaker 2:Um, and if I'm going to, if I'm going to an event, a large event, somewhere, I want to feel safe that they have. I'm not bothered how much it costs them they're charging me a fortune to get in. Quite frankly, I expect them to make sure that I'm safe when I'm there. I expect a security guard to properly search my bag, not just have a little peek in if I open it because, frankly, that's not going to find anything. And so this whole concept that it it's health and safety, I can't put my hands in there, okay. Well then, make me empty my bag. Um, you know, the idea that you just peek in it and that's going to find something is is just not good enough, frankly, um, and so I think we do need situations where, if people won't do what they should do properly, they need to be enforced to do what they should be doing.
Speaker 3:Exactly. Although you know force is a strong word, you know they need to be strongly encouraged through implementation of sanctions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but we need to change the mindset, don't we? Because it's complacency and it's idea. You know I've looked at, you know I've looked at lots of different security environments where I look at some of the people that are involved and I think are we paying them enough money for them to actually do the job properly? Are we investing?
Speaker 3:My answer is no.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know, I know, know, I know, you know we, there's this, there's this race to the bottom isn't there? Because let's see how much, how much? That's. That's because security doesn't produce something in terms of value, it's that's. How cheaply can we do this? Can we just tick a box? Or do we actually care about who's coming into our building or our, our venue, and do we actually care about whether they are safe or not? Because it's not a tick-the-box exercise. It's we want everyone to come in, have a great night and leave safely.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that changing mindset. You know, as human beings we're creatures of habit and we don't do change very easily. It takes a few years. So I think that mindset shift will take a long time for people. But once it's in, then I think the general public, once Martin's Law is in and everybody's got on board with hey, we can't go to a venue without being checked eventually just like the non-smoking ban people will come on board and then they'll question for security and, you know, name and shame them, and that will be a good time when that happens.
Speaker 3:That means it's implemented properly.
Speaker 2:It's interesting in that I remember doing, and I remember working with a security team where we were doing some events at a particular venue and nobody was allowed to bring a bag in. You know, there are bag drop zones where you leave your bag external to the to the venue, um, which are free. You know you can hand your bag in and get, you get a voucher. You pick your bag up later. So and this was a huge event with thousands and thousands of people coming um, I remember, decades ago, going to an event in new york and again, you weren't allowed to take your bag anywhere near the event. It has to be, you know, housed at a local shop on a voucher thing. So these things are all doable. Yes, it's a bit of inconvenient to you and me, um, but if we know that we don't take loads of stuff to an event, you know we make sure we get there early to leave it, that's. You know, these things are all doable. We just need to encourage people to do them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because it's in all of our best interest. Yeah, but once the legislation is in a couple of years down the line, I think people will cotton on, especially after the government starts the events campaign for the general public. Because still up to now, I would say, if you ask 100 people on the street do you know what Martin's Law is, I would say 90, 95 would say I've heard of it, three might say I've heard of it but I don't know what it is, and two might say I know what it is.
Speaker 2:Good Well, let's make sure. Yeah, the awareness campaign will change that Good because we need everyone to know what it is, Because what we need to do is, you know, those people who are complacent need to reflect on mums like you who've had to go through the most awful experience and you know, experience that will never leave you and that's why we're doing it. It's not to make money?
Speaker 3:It's not to do anything, it's to prevent someone going through what you've been through yeah, so kirsten asked me a few months ago when I met him the first time. He said I know about your campaign, what motivates you? And I said having my son's ashes on a bookshelf is a good motivator.
Speaker 2:No parent should be in that place, so couldn't really answer that well, I think vegan, that's probably a good place to leave this, because I think um, if that doesn't motivate, motivate people to take it seriously, to to make sure they're informed about what you're doing and support you and what you're doing, and to, um you know, to start smaller. You know if they're in their local community, do can in their security um specialist or or the security world, can they go and volunteer at their local church hall and give them some advice and help them? And can we collectively make it more difficult for the bad guys to make all of our lives more dangerous?
Speaker 3:Yes, thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Well, Figen, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you as a guest. Thank you so much for your time and keep up the good work. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the Diffuse podcast with host Philip Brindell, CEO and founder of Diffuse. Please rate, review and subscribe on your favorite podcasting platforms.
