The Defuse Podcast: Where Experts Defuse Real Threats
🔊 The Defuse Podcast: Personal Threat Management for High-Risk Lives
When the threats are real, the stakes are high — so what actually works?"
Hosted by Philip Grindell — former Scotland Yard detective, behavioural threat specialist, and author of Personal Threat Management — this podcast lifts the lid on the proven methods used to keep prominent individuals, executives, and private clients safer.
Each episode features straight-talking conversations with trusted experts on:
Stalking, fixated individuals, and insider threats
Protective intelligence and behavioural profiling
Reputation management and media exposure
Doxxing, OSINT, and digital vulnerability
Crisis leadership and executive resilience under pressure
Whether you're in security, lead a family office, or are responsible for protecting people at risk, you'll get honest, practical insights into what actually works when lives and reputations are on the line.
No theory. No fluff. Just proven ways to defuse real threats.
Subscribe now and learn how to manage threats before they become crises.
The Defuse Podcast: Where Experts Defuse Real Threats
When Crisis Hits: The Real Cost of Getting Reputation Wrong
When Crisis Hits: The Real Cost of Getting Reputation Wrong
This week's Defuse Podcast featured Heather Blundell (CEO, Grayling UK) and James Clothier (Head of Crisis) discussing how reputation management has become essential protection.
Key insights: Most crisis failures stem from human behaviour under pressure, not poor messaging. Female executives face different reputation attacks requiring specific strategies. Social media breaks stories before traditional media responds. Video responses are replacing written statements as authenticity matters more than polish.
Heather revealed that proactive reputation management creates a competitive advantage, not just damage limitation. The conversation covers timing challenges, the importance of an external perspective, and why lawyers often make statements worse by stripping out emotion. They discuss how social media has transformed crisis response - young people get news from Snapchat, stories break on Twitter first, and video content is becoming essential.
The practical advice focuses on being honest, letting the light in, and demonstrating genuine change rather than just promising to "learn lessons."
Heather Blundell’s Biography:
Heather is the award-winning UK CEO of Grayling, a global PR firm, responsible for 200 employees across nine offices.
She has spent more than 16 years as a trusted adviser to some of the world's largest companies and prominent CEOs, guiding them through periods of significant change, disruption, and complex reputation and crisis issues.
Heather is also a regular media commentator in the national media.
James Clothier
James is Head of Crisis at Grayling UK, responsible for leading the crisis and reputation practice, alongside the firm's corporate division.
Before joining Grayling, James spent two decades in senior editorial positions at The Sun and the Daily Mail.
https://grayling.com/
#ThreatIntelligence #CrisisManagement #ReputationRisk #ExecutiveProtection #CorporateSecurity #StrategicCommunications
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Welcome to the Diffuse podcast with host Philip Grindel, CEO and founder of Diffuse, a global threat and intelligence consultancy that blends psychology and intelligence to mitigate threats and risks to prominent people and brands.
Speaker 2:So welcome to the Diffuse podcast, where we explore the critical intersection of threat intelligence, strategic communication and organisational resilience. I'm your host, as you know, and today we're kicking off with a really I think it's going to be quite interesting two-part piece on reputation management. Before we dive in, if you haven't already done so, please don't forget to subscribe to the newsletter Diffuse News for weekly insights on emerging threats and best practice, and I always plug this, so I'm unashamedly going to do it again. My book Personal Threat Management is still on sale Great review, so go and buy a copy.
Speaker 2:Now let's start because we've got two really interesting guests. I think quite different guests, but you tell me you're a brilliant double act.
Speaker 1:We are it's?
Speaker 2:opposite tracks or something, isn't it? I don't know, but we've got Heather Blundell, who is the CEO of Grading, where we are today, which is thank you for inviting me and hosting it here and James Clothier, you're now the head of crisis. Head of crisis.
Speaker 2:I don't know whether you want to admit what your past is or no. I mean, head of crisis is used with a strong element of media support because, having had some years of agency experience before that I worked in Fleet Street for the Sun and the Daily Mail for about 20 years Must be different coming to the private sector, coming to the primers, coming to this store sector, then, not so different as it seems Okay, interesting. I mean, you know it's still exciting. Things happen every day and often you'll start the morning with a blank sheet of paper and by lunchtime it's overflowing. So it's still, it's busy. It's as busy as being a news editor on the sun. Yeah, which the sun? Yeah, which is great. It makes it really fun.
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah, so it's not that different okay, just have to keep stuff out of the press, yeah there's a lot of how can you minimise?
Speaker 2:yeah, that's a soul problem is, rather, create them. Now exactly, you're closing them down. You rather think for intentional work. And, hedy, you know you, when I first, when Romilly first spoke to me and said, oh, you know, I can't obviously Google you, and the first thing that comes up is you're the youngest. Yeah, the first thing that comes up is you know, you're the youngest female CEO of a global PR strategic commerce company.
Speaker 3:I think I might just be the youngest, you know.
Speaker 2:Are you yeah? Because my question was going to be. Are you bothered that you're the youngest female?
Speaker 3:No, I think I'm of the top 20 uh or global pr agencies. I think I'm probably the youngest, but someone's going to challenge me on that yeah, yeah, I suppose it depends if you tell your real agent.
Speaker 3:Yeah exactly, um, but no, no, I'm obviously like incredibly proud of that and, um, you know I do quite a lot of um speaking around, you know, because I'm, you know, a mom got two, and you know I do quite a lot of speaking around, you know, because I'm a mum got two young children and you know, obviously the CEO here as well. So, no, I'm really proud of a position like that.
Speaker 2:So how have you got here? What's your story, your history?
Speaker 3:global agencies. So I have done that since I, you know, graduated so 17 years ago. Um, I worked for, um, I've done sort of long stints at the sort of two biggest, which are edelman and, uh, weber, shanwick, and this is a global agency, but slightly more, slightly more mid-sized, and our center of gravity is in the uk, which is quite nice, actually, um, because, because some of the other bigger global agencies, it can be a bit more sort of US and global focused. So, yeah, I've just worked at global PR agencies.
Speaker 2:And what's your experience then, as a woman in business, in the current climate, where you know you and I talked about this before around the kind of rise of misogynistic behaviour, the kind of almost acceptability that's drifted across the atlantic from we know, you know who, um, but also you know the last few years that I've been doing this, an increase on kind of open hostility, yeah, toward women. What if you experience that personally?
Speaker 3:yeah, of course. Yeah, and I think um, we've, we've made a sort of huge effort at grayling in terms of our um, edi. You know strategy and you know policies and and why it's important. I mean it's you know diversity and equity and inclusion is so important for an agency like this. I say I use this example all the time.
Speaker 3:People are bored of of me saying it but look at our top 10 clients, even rattling off HSBC, national Grid, bourbon Football Club, grindr I mean, of course, I need a diverse workforce in order to service those clients. If I only hired one type of person, that would be an absolute disaster. So we do need a makeup of that. But you feel it as, as a woman, I can't. You know, I'm not a person of color, but I can. I can empathize if you are the only person in the room who is a person of color, because I often find myself in rooms where I'm the only woman and um. In fact, I have just come from a meeting, um, where I was the only woman and there were about 10 people in that room and, you know, brilliant and a really productive meeting.
Speaker 3:But it's difficult to describe you. It becomes very apparent very quickly um and um and you sort of have to. I guess it's just sad. The more senior you become, that becomes more frequent and I hope that you know, I hope that changes. We've done a lot to change that here at the agency. But on representation on our UK board we have 50% women, 50% men, a third are non-white and we have a 0% you know pay gap. But we have had to be very deliberate and intentional around that in the right way in order to get there. And I, you know I, as you said, from the US, we can see this movement changing, but you know we are in the UK and I think we need to remind ourselves of that.
Speaker 2:But you must be connected to other very senior, very successful, very wealthy women around the UK.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:What's their experiences? I mean, do you talk about the sort of things we're discussing?
Speaker 3:yeah, of course, um, I think there can be, you can. It can almost sometimes feel like his position is a bit of a weakness to have that experience or to find that difficult um and um, but I I think sort of openness around those challenges or how it can make you feel is really important. I also think I'm quite honest about things you know sometimes and I know that I have certain skills and softer skills that can probably get things over the line faster and better versus some of my male counterparts, and so of course I would use that and those softer skills to some of my male counterparts and so of course, I would use that and those softer skills. I can also be, you know, as I was going to say, aggressive that's probably not the right word to say but you know when needed as well. So you know, but you do have to sometimes learn those skills but also be proud of the differences we all bring in terms of leadership.
Speaker 2:And so, october last year, you're probably aware that the kind of new legislation came in around sexual harassment in the workplace, and you've been proactive around that. What do you do differently? Do you think now, then, to what you might have done in the past to counter that problem?
Speaker 3:I think a lot has changed around that, and I, you know, even in business, I had to deal with something a couple of months ago and it was the right thing to do dealing with it. But I thought to myself, gosh, two, three years ago, I, I just would have said, well, you know, they've had a fight or that language has been used. I, I, I don't think I would have batted an eyelid at it, um, but actually, you know, it's the law now, um, and those, uh, you know that has to be treated very differently, but I also don't think that's a bad thing. I think back to instances when I was a young woman, in certain situations and I just made my toes curl, and I hope that, you know, the 25-year-old women in this workplace never have to experience anything like that, because that legislation is there to protect them.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think the message I'm hearing wherever I go is it's whereas once it was, certain things were overlooked or they were suppressed or what have you? Everything's up. Now. Everyone's talking about it, everyone's raising their concerns and challenging it.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think that's obviously the right thing to do. But it obviously presents challenges for bosses as well to try and deal with it, because it can be quite time-cons bosses as well to try and deal with it, because it can be quite time consuming as well, massive I was going to say that massively time consuming and also trying to, you know, manage the level of risk.
Speaker 3:And, you know, will we be from alcohol into situations et cetera. Will we even be having Christmas parties in two years' time? I hope so. But you know, those things Danny doesn't want to laugh then because Danny has to organise that. But you know those things. Danny doesn't want to laugh then, because Danny has to organise that, but you know that throws up challenges in terms of behaviour and you know what's acceptable, what's not, and that's really changed. Yeah, yeah. And so when?
Speaker 2:you. I mean even things like networking meetings, you know, are just hazardous environments. I think a lot of them are out in the evenings with alcohol and it's uncomfortable at times. Yeah, particularly for women yeah um, because you get middle-aged men who think they're far more attractive than they are? Um, all of a sudden thinking they're somehow emboldened because someone's interested in what they've got to say, because actually there's a business.
Speaker 3:They're being professional when yeah thinking about a business perspective, but they're misreading the scenario yeah, yeah, yeah, but I do what I'm encouraged by is you know that? Does you know that's happened? Since you know forever? Women have felt so uncomfortable in those situations but you know I'm not regularly but on it. It's escalated now and people feel that's more acceptable and comfortable to do that, whereas 25 year old heather didn't and, um, you just accepted that was part of the course and I hope that women don't feel like that now. Junior women don't feel like that.
Speaker 2:I think that's a good point. So let's move on to kind of reputational risk then, because I'll be honest about you know, before I really properly, we're towards the tail end of me working in Parliament and I suddenly became aware of this term, reputational risk. But is it always been something that?
Speaker 3:you've been focused on. Uh, yes, and I think there are obviously lots of different reputational risks, um, but you know, what's interesting from our perspective is we'll bridge into you know corporate, you know reputational risk, um, and you know how to how to manage that and you know it's so interesting about it.
Speaker 3:You know how to manage that and you know so interesting about it is, you know, rarely does a business do something where that is lost overnight. That bad handling of a situation, you know can absolutely cause reputational risk. And then there's reputational risk to individuals as well, and you know clients and CEOs and you know we do a lot of that. So, yeah, I think when people often think about pr agencies, they think about us. You know we do do a lot of good stuff as well in terms of, like you know, campaigns and putting good news out there, but there is also been jokes aside. You know keeping stuff out of the news and and and you know our role in protecting individuals and and brands and businesses and do you think j?
Speaker 2:has the media changed at all because of that kind of focus on reputational risk? I think yes. I suppose so, in that the media obviously is all about getting stories right. And a company that's got a very well-known reputation, like Greggs or Primark, people will read about gregs or primark, whatever it's doing, if it's bringing out a new t-shirt, a new sausage roll or something that is news. So therefore, as the media is realized because of the you know the fact that you can tell in real time what people are reading all the time it's very easy to tell who has a high or low reputation and therefore that becomes more fragile or it becomes. You know people get excited about what companies with a strong reputation do. So yeah, that's grown the fact that if you write negative stories about a household name, you will get more eyeballs on it and more comments on it. So therefore it's a good source of writing stories.
Speaker 2:I think the thing to remember about the media is that it's made of people mainly who've never worked in business, so they don't understand the financial effects of a negative story about a corporation. They're often like chimps or toddlers crashing around going that's shiny, that's funny, let's do a story about that. So that's the first thing to remember. The second thing is that I think I've really learned this, and I don't know what you think about this as well that companies are sort of siloed or they're blind to how they're perceived by the outside world and what companies do is take something like food production Like we all know thanks to the Inside the Factory and programmes like that, that the process of making food is not a particularly pretty process. The process of making alcohol is sterile, with robots doing it. It's not like beardy old sailor types corking whiskey into old, you know, jugs or whatever.
Speaker 2:And I think that what is normal for companies, when viewed through the eyes of consumers or journalists, becomes quite disturbing or surprising or newsworthy. And and I think that one of the really really interesting sort of balances or paradoxes for companies is what's normal for an industry might look very newsworthy outside that and and it's sort of I think part of the job, part of the role is when a company is exposed for doing a perfectly normal practice is educating journalists that this is actually how it works, how it's always worked, and this is standard and it's not a story, because this is how the world works, because journalists are constantly uncovering how the world works, and it's always a surprise to them. Do you think, though, that when they, when they're going after an individual, as as an example, they've identified some story that might be true yeah, it might be speculative. Is there any concept around the psychological impact of that individual from targeting that person's reputation? Do people, do the media, consider?
Speaker 3:that, or is it just kind of a regular Caroline's flack? Must have changed that. Yeah, it's the flack effect effect.
Speaker 2:But also, but going beyond that, katie price and, um, that poor lady of big brother who got cancer, jade goody, jade, goody, um. So that, yeah, of course, um, initially probably not that you see someone who appears to live the life of Riley, who's got a great house, great car, perfect life, because that's the image, especially with Instagram and the great personal reputation, everyone likes to present, an image that their life's absolutely rosy, and so you think, well, you know, we could write some fairly negative things about these people. It's often referred to as tall poppy syndrome. Someone's life's absolutely great. Cut them down, they'll be all right, they'll grow back.
Speaker 2:But increasingly yes, there is a consideration for this might go badly after Caroline Flack, but more so. Clever celebrities and high-profile individuals are good good, with the help of PR firms, at saying things like well, you know, can you consider the effect on my children? Or consider the effect on my family, my wife, for example? And there's been many stories where journalists have gone gung ho for an individual and it's been communicated to them that this might not be the most sensitive because their children are being bullied at school or their wife's therapy ill, and journalists do absolutely row back massively when they hear that there is, there's, there isn't. They aren't vandals.
Speaker 3:If they're told that this is not, this is going to cause harm, then they pull back but I think what always surprises me, we are, all you know, fragile, and so I was working with a female ceo quite recently who was going with a bit very, very high profile, going through a very difficult time in terms of the business and, um, the times had written an article about her. Well, actually, the business and she, you know, the front and center of it spokesperson, and we've always had gorgeous press, and now it's been a bit challenging. And you know, she contacted me and she was really upset about this article and I sort of opened it up, sort of like wincing, and I read it and thought, oh, that's not bad. And then, but then I I swapped my name, like for hers, I thought how would I feel if I was written about that? But like because I was expecting me absolutely well for a real personal attack, and then just imagined exactly how I'd feel if that piece was written about me and I would be really upset.
Speaker 3:So, even if it's not blindingly obvious that that's a very personal attack, or perhaps that person's job might be on the line as a result of, you know, stakeholder investment and confidence and shareholders, et cetera, you know we are all so fragile and our job normally is to get our clients. You know amazing profile pieces and you know coverage and you know we've seen it time and time again when all of a sudden it hits the fan. It's not very nice and it's horrible for people, especially if they're so not used to it.
Speaker 2:But it's an interesting point you made there, because I can remember a bit when I was in Parliament doing the policing work there and a threat came in or some abuse came in and my team and I were like, well, that's not that bad.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because we've been doing this for 30 years or 20 years. Yeah, you were a bit desensitised to it, and it was only when I said to my wife. She said, oh my God, that would horrify me if I had that. And I think there's a real insight into when you're in a profession. You can become slightly numb to stuff like that, which is why it's so important to empathise. It's the first thing about effective PR, isn't it? It's empathising with the business, as in what does they feel. And once you empathize and start to understand, then you realize what the priorities are and you realize what responses you can do and you shouldn't do or how you go about it from there. But understanding is critical right at the beginning and also heather you talked earlier on. Around there can be an issue that is made worse by poor, a poor response.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, because the retail responses and the cyber attacks Right exactly.
Speaker 2:So you know so is that because they I mean, I don't know is that because they've got in-house PR that aren't necessarily particularly good, or they've misled the situation? Or how do people get it so wrong in the current age?
Speaker 3:Loads of things happen. So I'd be interested in James's thoughts on this. I think the most challenging is A when to respond. So are we going too late? Are we going too early? I remember you know Harrods and their response to the, you know, sexual abuse, I mean two days. So that's, you know, too late.
Speaker 3:I've seen stuff where I think, oh God, you should have waited 12 hours there. And then I think the third thing that really complicates stuff and there is nothing that can be done about this, even though I was talking about it before we recorded this is when we have to work with lawyers. We have to work with lawyers all the time, but I've written so beautiful reactive statements and then all the emotion is stripped out and stick to the facts. I think if you print that, you will look so cold and they have to have. It has to be authentic. So we have to get to a middle ground there sometimes. Sometimes that middle ground doesn't look great. So I think sometimes that's a real challenge and I can well, I can read a statement now and think, oh you, the lawyers you are.
Speaker 2:I think you see it with footballers and people who clearly are back.
Speaker 2:You know I'm not saying they're not intelligent, but they're not necessarily illiterate in terms of putting that statement out and it's blindingly obvious they haven't written it yeah, I think what it really underlines is, if there's a crisis, you, you A have to bring in the comms people really really early, really early, just to decide that thing of do we react now or do we react later, and to also think are the other people we've got enough or do we need external help? And so often people who've got experience are much more useful than just your internal people. And thirdly, it's that oversharing, undersharing thing, isn't it? It's, if you say too much and then have to retract it later, then that erodes trust. But if you say too little or use obfuscatory language, like what the lawyers do, then that also looks like you're hiding something. Yeah, and it's again. It's that empathy of thinking okay, this is going to be seen by investors, colleagues, customers, friends. You know what? What do we want to say? What tone do we want to use all those kind of things to get it right?
Speaker 2:and so is there benefit, then, to having independent people like yourselves as opposed to internal people? Who, who might be?
Speaker 1:forced by?
Speaker 2:yeah, obviously but in terms of in terms of avoiding bias and avoiding um group speak and and being pressurized to sort of say certain things when that may not be the right thing to do yeah of course.
Speaker 3:Clearly you can give a impartial perspective yeah, and that and that tough and that tough conversation I was. I'm thinking about something we were brought in to deal with um earlier this year and there were loads of tough conversations that no one was really willing to have and you sort of walk out thinking, oh well, you know, if they're like, they fire us. But you know, in order to get it right, someone has to say it. And you know, of course there are loads of brilliant um in-house um pr teams, teams who will understand the business of the brand way better than we can.
Speaker 2:But you know, when it hits the fan, you do need an outside perspective, and so, equally, is it beneficial then, to have that existing relationship with you before the crisis happens.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Because, obviously timing is so vital that if they come in when the crisis happens, they might miss that golden hour or golden piece, or we spend a day going you know we need to go through this and have you got this, have you got that?
Speaker 3:whereas if it's existing, of course it's better and easier.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean just a pure human point of view. There are some things that an internal person can't say to the ceo yeah, they can't say you're completely wrong, boss. This is mad, whereas an external person can yeah, so it's having that authority and that competence, but also establishing that relationship long before the crisis happens yeah and making sure that the trust is built up so that you are in a position to say, well, I was right about this and that now I'm right about this.
Speaker 3:Yeah we had to work on something very high profile last year, one of the most high profile crisis that hit the um media and um. Our team here walked in and said you have to say sorry and obviously the lawyers are up in arms and liability, and everyone's saying how, and and eventually I was like, well, yeah, we do, and actually you can do it in a way that doesn't accept liability. You can say you know we are bloody sorry this happened and you know we are working really hard to, you know, make this better.
Speaker 2:And that must be difficult when things are historical.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, when you've got a CEO, you know you come in as a CEO and all of a sudden there's a crisis that hits for something that happened 10 years ago or whatever, or even longer, yeah, or even longer.
Speaker 1:And so you know you're not liable today, but your predecessors were Much.
Speaker 2:in the case of Harrods you refer to, you know the people that are there today, you know, are not necessarily responsible for what happened 20 years ago, but they're managing.
Speaker 3:And people don't care. No, no, exactly, you know, customers, consumers don't care who it was. You work for that business and brand, you represent it. But that is a tough conversation we have to have with clients all the time, like unfortunately you're going to have to apologise to your father, like that is your role and it's going to cost you and it's going to cost you, because, whether you like it or not, the organisation is going to have to do something.
Speaker 2:that's whether it's costing, you know, employing you or what have you paying people out, et cetera. So in the police we used to have this scenario where if we were doing an operation, we'd have what's called if-asked lines prepared, so we were ready before the media.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, yeah, because that's something that yeah, q&a, yeah Right, yeah, yeah, totally. I always say to our clients facing crisis I hope we've proven wrong now now, but they should not be put in front of media and asked a question that we have not thought of right and if you, um, perhaps you thought, and if and if that happens, we haven't done our job.
Speaker 2:So you kind of war game. Oh yeah, the sort of scenarios that might come up yeah what sort of questions are going to come up, what the trip wires are which is why james is amazing because he was asking the questions 20 years. Well, because the other thing about internally internally, an internal person who's dependent on that company for their salary is never going to say to the CEO you've got to answer this question because it would be offensive and cause problems for them a year down the line and lose trust, whereas we can go in and say, well, you lied about that five years ago, didn't you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, you've been soft about that. So why are you being honest here? Yeah, and if you're not doing that, you're not doing your job, right, right, and so you know, when you're going into an organisation, then who's saying to you well, we haven't got any PR, we haven't got a problem right now are you just kind of assessing all of their comm strategies and sort of saying you know how well trained are you? Have you had training in speaking to the media, all that type of thing? Is that how you kind of go in and upskill people? Yeah, I mean, you go in and you say you empathize. You say, well, what does your business do? What are you most worried about? What things have gone wrong in the past? How do you deal with that?
Speaker 2:There's the obvious things that can affect every single business, like cyber crime you know there's a business that's attacked by cyber criminals every 39 seconds at the moment. It's a matter of when, not if. You will be attacked by cyber criminals who have a cyber event. So every company will at some point have to suffer that. So you talk about the things that could come out of nowhere, and then you talk about the things that will probably affect that business.
Speaker 2:So if you're you know that crane over there, someone will eventually fall out of a crane or there'll be an accident on a workplace or, like we were talking earlier, we've got the Harrods. I mean what you were saying, that there could be a Christmas party where something goes wrong. So it's the obvious things and the less obvious things. And then you talk about what their responses might be, how they'd handle that, and not just what, how they'd handle the incident, but handle how they communicate about that incident externally and who would be interested in what they expect to hear yeah, we call it a sort of crisis preparedness and that's the kind of you know package that a client could buy.
Speaker 3:But most often, I think we're brought in and this is where, rather than like oh God, we're on the front page of the sun, which has happened to me, but I'm going to repass the reply but.
Speaker 3:I'm not sure there's time, but for a client to bring us in three months beforehand saying this might happen to us. Can we scenario plan a bit? Who are our spokespeople? What has happened? Like absolutely. And that's our job isn't to cover stuff up, and we're always saying that We've lost big jobs over this, saying, look, we're not here to cover stuff up. You know, we're here to let the light in and that's going to be uncomfortable, but that's what you're going to have to do. So let's spend a few months if we've got a few months working through that so that if and when it does hit that, you're in the best possible place position you can be because of course you've got the alistair campbell scenario where you're just being a spin doctor and yeah and I guess there's this.
Speaker 2:This is, though, but I guess there is elements of that, and some companies are going to do that. They're going to, you know, try and spin their way out of something, but I guess you have your own strategy about how you, as an independent organisation, operate.
Speaker 3:You have to be honest.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you have to be honest, because if you're not, if you lie that's always the thing with journalists you lie, then you're in trouble, yeah, um, but you, you communicate effectively. Uh, and prepare, because this is the other thing about crisis when it happens, no one is really thinking about what should we? You know how can we craft a press release perfectly. You've got to have as much of it done in already, because, when it happens, everyone's running around with their hair on fire.
Speaker 3:we've had a lot of not a lot. I've worked on something I can really remember with one client where media got hold of it, but only half of it, and we were like it's only a matter of time before they find out x, y, z. So it's always obvious to say, okay, well, you need to say it because you'll look so much better if you're transparent. And when do you know? When do we lift the lid on that? And those are the types of delicate and strategic conversations that we can have with clients. Okay, well, if I've got that half, it's only a matter of time. So do you own it? Do you wait for them? You know, that's when it can become knotty.
Speaker 2:And do you think companies and you know high profile individuals are better at it now than they used to be?
Speaker 3:Being better prepared, better able to manage the crisis. I think there's certainly more. I don't know what you mean. I'm certainly more aware that these things can happen. It was so interesting. If you watch, you know watching a lot of the, you know, obviously, adolescence recently, you know the post office scandal. You know the post office scandal. It made you remember what life was like without social media and how isolated these instances must have felt.
Speaker 3:Because, you know, the post office scandal happened now 24 hours. Everyone would be connected and it would be, you know, on the Daily Mail and it just wouldn't have happened, whereas people thought they were on their own and that's why it was such a scandal, because they were also told that they were on their own and you know, and therefore it really blew up. So, actually, social media, we talk, we know, we slag it off all the time about how awful it is, but actually it has almost increased a lot of transparency that people just can't get away with stuff that they used to be able to do.
Speaker 2:That's true, but I think a really interesting thing about social media is that a well-known British car manufacturer, when they brought out an advert, that was quite striking last year how quickly the response on social media was to just have fun and it wasn't really a crisis or an issue. But it was just interesting how that, what social media does, is it there's a desire to laugh which.
Speaker 2:I think pre-social media wasn't. If something was bad, then people would sort of complain or it would be taken very seriously, whereas now, if a company has an issue, they become figures of fun, which I think is quite difficult to deal with if internally you're really anxious and worried.
Speaker 3:I think that well-known car manufacturer did that on purpose.
Speaker 2:I think it's quite possible that they did, but then I'm not sure how well that would have gone down amongst their potential customers. Do you want to be driving around in a clown car?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, laughing.
Speaker 2:So you bring up a new system. Point. If you think about the comedy mode around, timing is so critical. That must be more difficult now than with the internet, where things have you know, before you've even woken up it's gone around the world and back and and you've kind of lost control of it yeah, yeah, yeah, oh, and totally, and and issues and crisis.
Speaker 3:I remember working on something for an airport and it was as a result of a tweet, um. So it's like not only is it being talked about, and you know social, it's breaking on social and so, in terms of how we manage things, it used to be doing the media monitoring, now it's the social monitoring, the media monitoring the sentiment analysis. Throw a load of AI in there as well.
Speaker 2:We can move fast, but that's a lot to get through and a lot of conversation to understand, and then do you have to think about any physical risk to the individuals that go along with that? So, as an example, when someone's being targeted, you often then see the media flurry out of their home address. As an example yeah, less so no, I was back in the day I used to send a team of reporters to someone's home address and they would sit there from dawn till dusk. And now that doesn't happen because no one has enough reporters, they're just the resources are too much If it was very high profile.
Speaker 3:Though, what would you advise? Just go, I mean it happens, go into a hotel, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean like, don't drive away in the Range Rover but use a smaller vehicle or get a taxi, because you know that looks silly and don't think that you go to your country house and you'll be fine there. Don't go to a hotel. But then how do you do that if you've got, ask around, go to the countryside.
Speaker 2:But if you have, got a scenario where you have a husband or a wife, you've got kids, they've got their routines, they go to school and all that sort of thing it must be very difficult to then stop normality, including with the children going to school and all that sort of stuff, when you're being surrounded by a pack of all the media and all that sort of thing. Yeah, but you don't. I mean it's fine, I mean it's not fine. It's now very, very easy. Stop that, in that you one call to the managing editor to say I've asked them to go away, they won't go away, and then the managing editor will pull all people off and it stops straight away.
Speaker 2:So the days I mean look at Keirirsten's house and car and whatever being filed on um this week there there won't be a pack of reporters there. They might be milling around but they won't get very much because all I guarantee all the neighbors of that street in kentish town will say I don't want to be asked a question, you must leave me alone, and that will be that, that you don't, you don't really have packs. I mean, yes, you're right, if it's a massive story they'll be packed, but you can get into so much trouble nowadays for doing that.
Speaker 3:I've heard James advise clients on this. A lot is actually you know, we're not at the beck and call of media a straight conversation to some senior. It can lock a lot of things down and you know, it doesn't all need to be sort of nasty legal letters and things like that. I mean. So is that again about?
Speaker 2:relationships though yes, usually yeah, having them, knowing the right people to call and having existing relationships with them yeah, I mean there's countless examples where a call to an editor, to the adult adult, can resolve a crisis, uh, or at least diffuse it a lot, whereas going in with your size nines legal letters, getting all aggressive, just puts people's back up. Yeah, well, what about social media? Because that's that's increasingly difficult where they're no longer fact checking, they're no longer particularly recipient to complaints? True, but I think and I don't know what you think about this, but I think trust in social media is now going down and down and down. There was a story I read on. Someone told me about a story on Facebook last week saying that all the chaps who come across the channel on dinghies, if they present themselves at the nearest McDonald's, they get a free cheeseburger. And this was generally being disseminated across facebook. And I mean it's just nonsense. There's lots of nonsense around. So, therefore, you read a story on whatever social media, do you believe it? Not really? Do you put a little heart next to it or a lol emoji? I think a lot of people do believe it. I think they do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a very interesting scenario at mcdonald's as an example, where at the beginning of the Israeli-Palestinian scenario, some Israeli soldiers were seen in a McDonald's, which caused McDonald's to be targeted around the world. And I listened to the head of security from McDonald's and he said we try to sort of come out and say McDonald's is a franchise, first and foremost, but secondly, you go to any McDonald's anywhere in the world, we encourage law enforcement to come and have a coffee or come and have a break there. But the problem was no one cared because all everyone was focused on was McDonald's, letting Israeli soldiers, who were perceived as the bad guys in the scenario. So you know, I think they really struggled to communicate that and to get people to change it.
Speaker 3:I was literally trying to write the reactive statement to that in my head and that's complicated.
Speaker 2:Because you're suddenly in geopolitics. Exactly, and again some of it's not true some of it's perspectives. A lot of people didn't really know what was going on in Palestine. People on the marches were being asked about it and didn't even know where it was.
Speaker 3:So I think there are some scenarios where is it best to just say nothing yes, yeah, sometimes I think, where we, um clients, are very challenged and and what pisses the media off and I'm sure you all agree with this is you will get some clients and spokespeople who will, you know, love their moment in the, in the glory, when it's all going you, when it's all going beautifully well, and then we discover one thing or one challenge. You won't speak about it, and that really irks me, because the next time I've got a good story, it's like I'm absolutely not going to cover that. So you know, I've worked with so many CEOs who have been so brave in that moment and said, oh gosh, you know I'll do the good stuff I'm gonna have to worry about, and that's always a challenging conversation for us to have with clients.
Speaker 1:but you know that there are.
Speaker 3:There are moments where saying nothing is the right thing to do, but I can't think of many of them no, I agree, I agree, especially that's.
Speaker 2:And if you're all the time when, times when the sun's shining and the birds are singing, yeah, you're there, happy to talk about it as soon as the clouds come.
Speaker 3:I bet nothing annoyed you more like when that happens, of course.
Speaker 2:Actually the worst thing is when there's a bad story and they come up with that kind of horrible. You know we're here for the good times, everything's great. Like not acknowledging that there's a.
Speaker 3:Any show.
Speaker 2:Can that? Become the yeah, of course. Yeah, a bad reactive statement, can't it? Yeah, very, if it looks tone deaf, it can make it a thousand times worse. So how do you learn to do this? Then, you know, is it just purely? Experience and the school of hard knocks and getting it wrong and getting it right and working with people. How do you know? You have to be good at this subject.
Speaker 3:Well, it is experience and I and my first um agency, um, ended and it is well documented that it worked on it, but for a couple of years worked on the um news international and the phone hacking um stuff. So actually a very, very junior level. I was um. I mean I was doing a lot of media monitoring as well as doing. Actually that was so useful because I just read the media around it day in, day out. But I still, even when I'm responding in terms of doing crisis work, I still go back to so much of that stuff that I learned sort of 15, 16 years ago working on that and I think you take it's a playbook and you take it wherever. I mean it's certainly not a one size fits all. And then I also think within the agency, you know, sometimes it's you know you just get pulled onto something and then people, some people, hate working on crisis because you have to work half and fast on weekends and evenings.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's no hours to deal with it.
Speaker 3:It's not very, yeah. And then you get some people who are like that was so interesting and I really enjoyed it. It's a very different relationship with the client. You know we can often feel almost a bit subservient to our clients. Oh please, you know, can you sign off this campaign and this press release? And you know, in a crisis moment it's a real leveller, like we're all in it together. I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with you and you know this isn't going to be very nice to you, but we will come out the other side and often clients that we've worked with in crisis, you know, end up feeling like you know friends, or we will work together for five or six years, or you know that they're always on the phone. It's a real, it's a, it's a different way to enter into a relationship and I quite, I quite like that but as a ceo, yeah, how much of that are you still doing?
Speaker 3:quite a lot yeah, I love, I really love client property. Too much client work, but especially in terms of that sort of crisis stuff and also because often you know, the senior members of our business have those c-suite relationships so when it hits the fan. You know you do need to be the one, can they stupid?
Speaker 2:I want you to be dealing with this yes because of the power of their contract or what have you? Yeah, so why did you bring james in? That's a good question. Well, the irony was that I I was working for news uk when heather was doing the crisis council, news uk so we've both been in the same crisis, but seeing it from two different different. I wasn't on your side, you were on our side.
Speaker 2:Uh, and this is, I mean, it's quite. You know, it's really interesting now talking about crisis and working with crisis with other firms, when you've been through quite a major one yourself. Yes, and you've seen what actually happens in a crisis and you've seen the kind of in granular detail how the staff hate it when a story appears in the papers about them and how the effect on people's families are that, the toll on their lives, how, um, unhappy people get and you think it's never ending. Uh, I mean your work in the police you must have. You know you have investigations that seem to go on and on and on. It's the same with the crisis. It it does last for months and months and months and it leaves an awful toll on people. And when you get get you know the boss coming in saying let's have pizzas because it's Friday and only a couple of people have been arrested today. You go right, that's not great. So it's just that it's a grind. Would you think you were better at what you do, having been a victim of it in a way? Yeah, I think so, because it gives you an insight that very, very few other people working in crisis can have, like actually being able to say to clients I know what it's like because I did it and it lasted for years and it was not just a small crisis.
Speaker 2:It was written about day after day after day we were talking to BBC News. Day after day after day, the Guardian had an absolute field day. Was it a bit of a payback, do you think? Of course, yeah, yeah, of course. So you were the target all of a sudden. Yeah, there was a huge amount of joy. That was the other thing. It's really interesting seeing the joy that the media get that gotcha moment. Yeah, that gotcha moment, that great. And the fact that people writing books and but I don't want to. Yeah, it was, yeah, it was, it was an interesting time and it's and it's a podcast. Yeah, exactly, but but that's part of it. Yeah, but that means if you can talk to clients who are going through a crisis, yeah, with a point of view and an experience that is quite rare, I think, and it's quite reassuring as well to say that I I know what it's like.
Speaker 2:So, so, when you're bringing people onto this business, yeah as a graduate entry or there isn't, I don't know what. How it works. Normal entry people just start. How do you start what? What's, what's the what's the reason for getting involved?
Speaker 3:um, so I would say the type of work that, um, you know we're talking about here in terms of that sort of crisis and reputation, is quite specialist. But we, you know, we do work with a sort of entry-level, um, uh, junior colleagues. I remember, actually, the news international stuff is really interesting because the contract, um, stipulated that only senior people could work on it. But senior people would completely imagine, you know, someone's saying to me now we only need to pull together the media monitoring report, or, you know, can you do the analysis from? You know I'll give it a whirl, but that's honestly what happened.
Speaker 3:And so it had to be, you know, managed at very senior level to the point that, to the point that we would have, and then all of a sudden they were like, well, we can't do this, you know it's not good. We need people who actually use, you know, social media and, you know, have read a paper, and so, you know, we were then drafted in, but we used to have to kind of send some emails out to their computers and stuff. It was hilarious, wow, whereas now there's an appreciation, actually, again, you know, coming back to building diverse teams of different ages and different skill sets, you know our social media and perspectives and totally, I've had that as well.
Speaker 3:You know that I think something's. You know one thing, and then I'll sit in a room full of our sort of, you know, gen Z colleagues and they just see it so differently to me and that's so helpful in terms of how is the perception around this and the crisis. But also, you know, they will be able to pull together the social listening and media monitoring a lot better than you know, james and I, um, and you know that is actually so important for our response and the clients absolutely pour over it. So, yeah, and that's so in terms of how you enter into work with this, I do think a lot of our sort of junior colleagues and entry level colleagues do get exposed to um.
Speaker 3:You know some of our, some of our crisis work, um, you know we always have to like check in with colleagues because some of it can be um. You know, we did for one of our clients recently. You know two of our clients recently. I can think of stuff where I've had to, you know, pull certain people off because it's just very harrowing and um and difficult subject matter, um, and so you know, but you and I think it's really important to be always be able to say to you know, staff, if there's anything you don't want to work on, if don't feel comfortable doing this, or if you've done it for a couple of weeks, and it's enough, you know to say um, and that's. You know a an evolved position within the workplace because that wouldn't happen to you 20 years ago.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, just get on with it, yeah.
Speaker 3:I did stick my hand out for it. It was quite interesting.
Speaker 2:And so is there a difference then between public relations and strategic communications?
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah, for sure, I think.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I think, or it's just a flash name to kind of not call ourselves pr.
Speaker 3:We're going to pretend we're doing something strategic yeah, and I, and I think I sometimes think in terms of um. You know, pr can sometimes have a bit of a, like you said, a scramble spin doctor and you know a bit of a dirty um term to it. You know, can we PR our way out of this? Sorry, there's a seagull behind you and we'll try not to laugh. It's huge. It's huge, isn't it? Yeah, it's absolutely massive. So who's watching? Who?
Speaker 3:Yeah, this is a crisis we're going to have to face. But in terms of, you know, crisis and reputation management, that is is, you know, often very strategic, um, you know, but it is, you know, public relations and reputation management, um, but it's, it's certainly less fluffy in some stuff and you mentioned on the kind of gen z type subject and I'm interested to know.
Speaker 2:I think when I was young, you know, the media just was targeting everyone and we kind of all believe the same sort of thing, really because that's what we were told to that's changed drastically, I think, in terms of the perceptions I might have, compared to my nieces and nephews, for example. So you're having to factor all that in as well when you're working with a crisis, in terms of we need to be appealing to different groups.
Speaker 3:Or even where they get their news, like someone recently told me I was like well, we actually need to factor that in, that the majority of teens are getting their actual news from Snapchat.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's insane, well it's not insane, you're right, it's the modern way. But yeah, I mean, this thing about news avoidance is huge now that vast amounts of young people, 18 to 24-year-olds, would not go near a paper, would actively avoid the BBC News, switch the radio, the wireless, off if it comes on. So you're right. So, in terms of positive PR, security communications and crisis communications, you've got to think where are they going to get it from, and their reactions can be different because of their informed lived experience. But also, how do you reach people who actively avoid legacy news sources?
Speaker 2:um, although I would suggest that you know that, that these new media have to get their news from somewhere, and most stories that they talk about started with legacy media and then bleed into that and then get picked over and poured over. So I still think there's there's a vital one has to care about. Even if you want to talk to to 18 to 24 year olds, you've got to care about what's being written in. You know paper and ink because people traveled there. Do you think people are more accustomed nowadays to just read a headline rather than the whole piece? I was talking to a mate from the Express the other day and it's all about the headline, because once you click into it then it's a win. They don't care if you don't read more than a couple of paragraphs, you just have to click into it. So the headline is absolutely. But from your perspective, though, when you're trying to communicate a story, that must be problematic.
Speaker 2:It's really problematic If you know they're probably not even going to read the story, they're just going to read often what's the hook point to try and grab your attention.
Speaker 3:I had a call from a client a couple of weeks ago on a Saturday who wasn't happy because of the headline and I said, if you read paragraph 4, you know our position is really clear there. And he was like, well, no one's reading paragraph 4. And I was like, if that is true and often you can you know how many times have we I mean clickbait headlines? Or we'll phone up a journalist and say that headline is really unfair and doesn't reflect the article and they always blame their editor oh, it didn't go in like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did write about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, then what's happened? You did that. We said that politicians, though, when I would, they'd have a threat and I'd speak to them and say, oh, that wasn't, I was misquoted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you know, you're going to say future of this.
Speaker 2:What do you predict are going to be the issues going forward in the next three, five years? The whole of communication? Yeah, well, I mean in terms of, you know, reputation is becoming the thing, isn't it? You know we're all about brand, aren't we nowadays? So I do, I'm a small business, but my brand is critical. I've got to think about that. It seems that we're all brands now. Yeah, I think. Okay, so the big thing in media at the moment is that Google and Facebook are deprioritising news, and the referrals from social media to news sites have just disappeared, and so, therefore, they're not getting clicks from social. What is on the up is video and video content, and the monetization of long-form video content is where lots and lots of investment is being made, because if you have an eight-minute YouTube youtube video, if you watch it to the first advert break, you get peanuts. If you watch it to the eighth advert break or the 16th advert break, then that's where the money comes in.
Speaker 3:So these long-form podcasts the daily man is now producing, popping out podcasts every couple of weeks and we had dinner with our friend who hasn't had news from the sun and it was really interesting. But you know some documentaries. It was on Channel 4.
Speaker 2:They're really getting into making long form like podcasts and videos and that kind of thing, and I think that's going to go up and I think there's a place for us to encourage brands to make to get their message over in video, or to work with media brands to make better sort of video content.
Speaker 2:So does that imply that we're becoming more visually orientated? I mean, you only have to go on a train and everyone's watching. Yeah, like a couple of years ago you'd commute and everyone would be reading their phone. Like a couple of years ago you'd commute and everyone would be reading their phone in a sort of vertical format, and now everyone's watching tv on the tube.
Speaker 3:So that so, in terms of your now strategy in terms of responding to things, are you saying that they're going to be more likely to be doing putting out their own videos rather than writing a response yeah, and I think, even if we think about how we respond to issues or challenges within business, I think you know, when we were doing things 15 years ago, it was, you know, the statement and that still is, to a degree that, a lot of that you know, when, when it really hits the fan, um, but I think, in terms of how we um would coach a business to respond, I think there are lots of different ways that we use now and you know, we all know how important the role of you know, leadership and the c, you know, often the ceo or spokesperson is and um, I can't remember the stats at the top of my head, we've got it and every pitch deck we do is like oh, you know, if you're a trusted ceo, consumers are 72 percent more likely to buy or whatever. But we all know it, you know. But businesses that are, oh, we love that. You know.
Speaker 3:Um, I love, like alex mahon from channel four and I, and so I, you know, I feel very fondly about channel four, but it's because I like her. You know that's um, you know, it's just the way we're wired, um. So actually, you know when, um, when it there are challenges, you know, maybe it's never, it isn't a statement, a written statement anymore, maybe it's, maybe it's a video and maybe it's put on social, maybe it's you talking and and and answering those questions and wanting to be really transparent. And you know that I don't think we were doing stuff like that five years ago, and so I think that sort of authentic leadership position and voice in response to how a brand represents themselves during good times and challenging times is going to become even more important. As you say, we are all brands.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I mean without getting political. When I watch the current prime minister speaking, when he's scripted, I don't believe him. I just don't feel that's him talking. Yeah, and I feel it's almost like my, my mind is saying is he, does he not? Is he not being trusted? Yeah, to just talk yeah and so I guess that's again the sort of thing you would be thinking about just talking.
Speaker 3:Normally you do more, yeah, yeah so there's.
Speaker 2:It must be part of your thought process around not being overly scripted and trying to become authentic. There's a word you know we've used a couple of times.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and you know, james, there's a lot of media training around that, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, we should probably rethink how it's called, shouldn't we? Rather than media training, because that implies that you're being trained to. You know, go mano a mano with the media, and, in fact, it would be better to call it authenticity assistance, communication, communicating authentically, I might have to brand that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, think about that. Yes, exactly Because a lot of people are brilliant at their jobs, but when they have to talk about themselves to a journalist, they're terrified and they think, oh, I've got to come up with the key lines and the key messages, rather than talk authentically as a person, as they would to any person they met in a pub or a meeting room or a conference about it. And yes, it's awful when you see politicians who have been media trained badly and sound like funny little robots, whereas if it's done as Grayling do very effectively, you will end up sounding like a human being we start with our media training off of loads of videos of just like harrowing watches we'll have to do it.
Speaker 2:We'll have to do it.
Speaker 3:it's quite fun. I think the other challenge we have because we call it media training we've even had this this week is you'll have someone be like well, I was media trained in 2015, so I don't need it again. Yeah, you do know media training. Yeah, yeah, and actually the best, best clients that we've worked with and who are amazing at media, just do it all the time. They'll do a practice run through with you before they go on. You know, on Good Morning Britain, on Question Time, they just rehearse all the time because you know they admit that that's really, really helpful rather than you know.
Speaker 3:I think maybe it's better to call it message training or you know. But that's a position at the Glide sometimes, where we think well they might have learned something you need.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we do. Yeah, well, you know. Thank you so much for today. I've really enjoyed chatting to you. It's been fascinating having both of you, actually, because, um, you come from different worlds, I guess, in some respects, but you're merged now to to um, to do one thing. So what would your final kind of advice be around how to do it properly, how to get the message across properly?
Speaker 3:um, I think, my sort of key takeaway and how to get the message across properly. You know, for agencies and clients, you know, particularly as we are talking about sort of reputation management and you know, sometimes when it's challenging, a let the light in, oh, look, be cards on the table, honest, um, but um, and to you know, be considered in terms of how you're responding, in terms of, as we've talked about, timing and then again, sororities as well, but, you know, authentic to the business and the brand and the people involved.
Speaker 2:And be human, yeah, and I guess that comes into the kind of I'm sorry, you know we cocked up or we got this wrong, or we misread the situation, et cetera.
Speaker 3:You can say, you can see that when you do that, the heat coming out of the situation. Quite recently we worked on something and we were so honest in our response.
Speaker 2:The media sort of were like oh, that's a bit boring. Kills the story, doesn't it?
Speaker 3:Killed it Like yeah oh my God, it's absolutely awfully wrong. We need to go and have another look at it.
Speaker 2:Thank you, but then when I know it's just come to us yet. But then I think one of the problems I always have and I come from the policing world, we're particularly bad at it is they say we're going to learn some lessons. And people think no, you're not, it's just what you're saying. So if you're going, to learn lessons. You've got to demonstrate. You've learned lessons, presumably.
Speaker 3:Yes, totally. And the other thing that we have media are quite good at this is they'll come back a year later and go. So what have you done? Yeah, yeah, how did all that training go? Yeah, what's your board look like now? Is that person? Oh, that person. You did fire that person, but now they're a non-exec and it gives them another run at it. So not only do we have to be like okay we've killed the story.
Speaker 3:But if they come of stick, you've got to realize yeah, the media love that when they've got, when they get there, when they get something and they think, yeah, I'm not going to forget about that no, it's a classic sunday for monday thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what were we doing this time last year? Right, that was massive. Let's go back and see how they've done and if they haven't done anything, boom yeah, that's another story. Brilliant. What is the awful? Well, we've employed him not me. Well, james and heather, thank you so much. Well, james and Heather, thank you so much.
Speaker 1:It's been a real privilege. Thank you so much. Thank you for having us. Thank you for listening to the Diffuse podcast with host Philip Rindell, ceo and founder of Diffuse. Please rate, review and subscribe on your favorite podcasting platforms.
